Sam Abuelsamid  0:00  
This is the guidehouse transportation insights podcast for June 24 20.2. I'm Sam Abuelsamid gatehouse insights and I'm joined today by Sacha pinata Scott Shepard and Joe Jannotta. Let's start with Joe this week. Joe, what's what's been going on in your area? 

Joe Jannotta  0:18  
Oh, yeah, so something I came across was Honda and Sony's plan for a joint venture for electric and potentially automated cars. So the two Japanese companies announced they plan to roll out their first vehicle by 2025. Honda is going to play the main role of making the vehicle itself but Sony will provide all the software screens and cameras.

Embedded in the vehicle also with the purchase is Sony's portfolio of entertainment of movies and television shows. Executives from both of the companies in the initial announcement have said they plan to potentially spin this off as its own entity separate from the two main companies. This is similar to what Ford was discussing with spinning off their electric vehicle offerings as a separate entity that they ultimately didn't follow through with. And I think it'll be interesting to see how this potential spin off will affect Honda's operations as they are already producing a number of electric vehicles currently, in what areas the two different entities might market their space market their vehicles to different market segments of the electric vehicle space, whether the Honda joint venture might be more luxury vehicle focused, and the Honda in the Honda individual entity might be more focused on their traditional vehicle offerings. So I think that'll be interesting to see.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:52  
Yeah, it's, it's gonna be fascinating to watch this Honda seems to be hedging their bets, doing a number of parallel efforts. In addition to this joint venture with with Sony, their first deal, they're already producing a couple of EVs, very small EVs for the European market. And they're doing a pair they're doing initially to EVs with General Motors, the GM is going to be building based on their ultium platform, starting in 2020. For one, the Honda is going to be a crossover called the prologue. The accurate there's also gonna be an Acura that is as yet unnamed, both coming and 24. And then that Honda also recently announced an expanded partnership with GM for smaller EVs starting in 2027. And Honda has also got their own Evie platform that is supposed to launch in 2026. So they're kind of spread, spreading the love around it seems guys have any thoughts about that?

Scott Shepard  3:03  
Yeah, I guess, one theory I have is that, you know, by spreading their bets around there, they're reducing their risk. And I think, you know, we've seen that, in the early days, quite a bit with a lot of Eevee developments and automakers partnering together on different designs. It does seem a little bit I guess, late in my mind to be taking that approach still. You know, I can imagine doing it for like fuel cells at this point, but the Eevee market seems pretty robust. So, you know, at the end of the day, I'm wondering, you know, where, where Honda is really trying to put its foot down if they're still thinking that EVs are questionable. You're on mute.

Sagie Evbenata  4:01  
Sorry. Yeah. I also think yes, it's interesting, Honda's activity in evey so, so actually, it is also something I was gonna talk about a bit later as well. Somewhat related news and then expanding the operations in electric micro mobility in particular. But I think yeah, probably for all of their vehicle segments. I think they've they've probably there may be a bit late, late to the party, but I think they've realized it's it's an important place space for them to be playing.

Sam Abuelsamid  4:38  
Yeah, you know, you're I think you're both like you're all right. You know, it does seem to be a little bit late to making be making so many different bets because now you're having to invest in multiple different platforms. You know, unless unless Honda and Sony and as part of their joint venture are going to be using the Honda developed Evie platform that was supposed to launch in 2026. I'm not sure that makes sense to have so much diversity of different architectures that they're using, especially given the nature of Evie architectures where you tend to have a lot more commonality. And Evie platforms can scale more easily from smaller to larger vehicles. You know, you look at Volkswagen, for example, for example, with their MBB platform that is going to run from, you know, smaller vehicles like the ID three, and even something smaller than that all the way up to the ID buzz and other larger vehicles. Or, you know, GM with their Altium architecture that, you know, going from, you know, the Chevy Equinox to the GMC Hummer. There's, there's a lot of shared componentry there. And, you know, if they're doing different things with each one of these programs, that doesn't really seem like it makes economic sense.

Sagie Evbenata  6:03  
Yeah, also, I think it's interesting is Sony's involvement in this. I think it was last year that they were they were working on a project with I think it was Yamaha for an automated shuttle bus. So they were operating in Japan somewhere in the night, I think there's an Okinawa in fact. And so the concept there was that I think Yamaha developed the vehicle, whereas Sony provided an augmented reality experience for the passengers as they were transported from probably the city to the, to the holiday resort that they were staying at. And so they were rather than having windows, they had some some kind of augmented reality screen, so they can see a little bit outside but there was, there was there was various things superimposed to give information on where they were going. Or also, I think there was some kind of entertainment functionalities that they could perhaps watch movies or and I think there was some kind of Halloween experience which they did some point last year so certainly certainly have a keen interest in being involved on in the automated automotive space as well.

Sam Abuelsamid  7:08  
Yeah, I mean, Sony has been supplying various components and systems to the auto industry for some time. They've done audio systems and, and other things. And they showed they've shown at CES in 2020. And then again, this year, they showed two different full vehicle, Evie concepts. And, you know, for some reason, they seem to want to get into the auto making space, but not entirely clear. Why that Alright, anything else on the Honda Sony deal? Alright, so Scott, what have you got?

Scott Shepard  7:45  
Yeah, so I'm earlier in this week. Mercedes Benz truck, which is a brand of Daimler truck. Operating in Europe, they announced that they'll be presenting the E actress long haul. concept, and an upcoming conference Ay ay ay ay ay. And it's, it's interesting, because there have been a lot of conversations about the future of long haul trucking, and kind of a conversation about which fuel the industry is going to go towards hydrogen or electricity. And with this announcement, Mercedes Benz is definitely not her Mercedes Benz truck is definitely not, you know, deciding which fuel is going to be there because they're making investments across the board and hydrogen and electric, but they are presenting sort of an interesting approach for electric for long haul. So some specifics on the vehicle include a range of about 500 kilometers. LFP battery, to LFP is is a more durable battery. And so they're looking at basically an improved cycle life of the battery over its life, but they're also pairing that LFP battery with the expectation that it's going to be charged with megawatt chargers. And that's a charging standard that has only come out recently. And they're expecting to deploy that as part of a joint venture with a few other truck automakers in, in the EU. And so, ultimately, they would look to test this technology in 2023, and then start series production in 2024. So some of the specs kind of allude to what they're expecting the use case of this vehicle to be specifically that you would drive it for around 500 kilometers, and that distance would equate Up to about four and a half hours of driving time. And per e regulations, the drivers would have to stop and take at least a 45 minute break, at which point they would be able to charge their truck at a megawatt charger to full and then complete the next 500 kilometers or so. So, it's, um, it presents a case in which, you know, the limited range of, of electric vehicles, especially in the long haul segment might be able to, to fit into that long haul use case with a charging infrastructure with the, with the megawatt charging system that is soon become available and and deployed in both North America and Europe. So it's, it's interesting on a few of those different points, specifically, what range Mercedes Benz trucks thinks that is, is going to be, you know, sort of a minimum viable product to make the long haul trucking electrified, alongside that infrastructure solution of megawatt charging. So and then the other component is, is the use of, of LFP. That's an emerging or it's not really emerging, it's been around in the industry for a while. But use of that technology for for the truck, I think, has a few different advantages. Also some detractors, when it comes to energy density. So I think there's a little more to come out on on how that technology pairs well, in this in this particular use case. But ultimately, I think it's the first sort of indication of where that long haul, or what that long haul solution is going to look like, when it comes to being electrified.

Sam Abuelsamid  12:08  
So when when is this truck going to be available on the market? And when? When will megawatt chargers start to be deployed? commercially?

Scott Shepard  12:22  
Yeah, so the truck, it's going to go undergo customer testing in 2023. And they have stated that the series production will begin in 2024. So yeah, I would assume that you start to see these vehicles actually deployed in real world situations 2020, fleet 2024 2025, something like that. In terms of the development of that megawatt charging network, there are developments underway now for heavy duty vehicle charging at 350 kW, which is not megawatt charging. But it is getting the built infrastructure in place for megawatt charging technologies. So Electrify America, as well as this jve in Europe have been talking about rolling out the initial charging networks for heavy duty trucks based off of more of a 350k W. Design right now. megawatt charging has just recently kind of debuted. So you know, it's hard, hard to say, what exactly would be in place by the time these trucks come online. So like in that 2024 2025 period, I would assume we're looking at a few stations deployed along the main routes, and maybe just a smattering of stations just the early, basically pilot routes. My expectation is that 2025 to 2030 is when you see a ramp in megawatt charging deployments to service these vehicles, but it's going to be tied to very local deployments of, of electric trucks for these long haul routes around the main corridors. Hard to say exactly when megawatt charging will be deployed. But the the building blocks are there for its deployment now. But I wouldn't expect anything until we're we're closer to seeing these vehicles actually enter us.

Sam Abuelsamid  14:41  
It's interesting that they're choosing to use an LFP Lithium Iron Phosphate battery for this truck. Given that LFP has a lower energy density than nickel based nickel rich batteries. Did they give any aside from the dirt ability. Did they give any other reasoning? Why they chose that, despite needing a not insignificant range, you know, three to 500 kilometers 300 Miles is still fairly significant for a large truck. What Why did they go with the LFP? Was there anything besides the durability?

Scott Shepard  15:21  
Yeah, well, I think it's mostly the durability. They do allude to the LFP battery having more usable energy. But I would, I would assume that is a little bit misleading when it comes to the fact that I had typically LLP has lower energy density than NMC. So what I assume you're talking about is that if you have 100 kilowatt hour battery, you're just able to use more of it, than if it were this, the 100 kilowatt hour for NMC. Regardless of that, I think that LF use of LFP, here comes down to pairing it with megawatt charging. So the durability component, I would assume is, is stronger when being charged with a megawatt of power, or more. Because that's where you can really see the greatest impacts on battery life is when you are charging it at very high rates, you're bound to see more degradation. So I would say that it's primarily a decision of, of durability in the face of the expected charging power, they're likely to see with this vehicle,

Sagie Evbenata  16:41  
one possible advantage of LFP batteries, and I'm not sure if this is true or not is. So I know, with Tesla's that some of their vehicles have LFP batteries, and for those particular vehicles, Tesla actually recommend that they charge those to 100%, as opposed to let's say 70 to 80% for for other battery types. So I'm not sure if perhaps, for long haul trucks may be recommended that they can fully charge it or maybe this is some Tesla anomaly. Just covering up some some some other technology in the background.

Scott Shepard  17:20  
Yeah, I mean, I think it has more to do with charging than anything, the design of this truck basically to be to get its charge and then go you want a more durable battery, then I would say if they were designing it around sort of the depot model depot charging model model, they might aim to do something more with an NMC which is going to give you higher energy density. So that with your slower rate of charge on potentially less durable battery, you will be able to go farther. So it's it's an interesting optimization problem.

Sam Abuelsamid  18:01  
Right. Alright, Sergey, what do we got sweet?

Sagie Evbenata  18:05  
Yeah, so yeah, as I mentioned it Yeah, most of them I mentioned that Honda. But they recently announced that they they launched a dedicated Micromobility arm called s3 Amo I pronounce that correctly. So this is emerged from that they have like a business incubation units called ignition and this is one of the first businesses which has emerged from that. So it's true amo has they very recently also announced that they've developed a three wheeled electric e scooter. So an E kickscooter, which is also called streaming mode. So they're looking to to launch that in Japan later this year, and in Europe and the US next year. So this is an interesting design from Honda in excess of three wheeled kickscooter It's got two wheels at the back and it has some kind of gyroscopic stabilization system so it means that the riders of the E scooters are always upright when the vehicle is tilting through terms so the vehicle is very stable and also the vehicles very controllable and smooth over at very low speeds which is often an issue with with E scooters. So in many places where you're allowed to ride e scooters, on payments on sidewalks, and very low speeds where there's lots of pedestrians that they're typically very jerky and difficult difficult to control which which is which which poses a problem for for pedestrians. So Furthermore, the E scooter it's foldable, it's fairly hefty at 20 kilograms but it can be wheeled on on its transport Let's rear two wheels by just being dragged along if you're walking has arranged around 30 kilometers it has a battery which is which is removable. It's not clear at this moment whether or not battery swapping is an option. However, Honda is part of the cycle batteries consortium with with some of the major e motorcycle manufacturers. And yeah, I think this is interesting from from a Honda perspective, as we mentioned earlier, is showing her Honda's expanding ambitions to be involved in immobility in different vehicle segments. I think that this unusual design of a scooter is addressing some of the major concerns of East scooters such as safety. So I think anecdotally, I've heard that one of the main reasons for injuries and and fatalities on these scooters is when they topple over. So this probably addresses that. And also, yeah, the Nuisance Complaints from pedestrians or when they maneuver on paper on sidewalks. But I think Honda probably seen it as a big commercial opportunity and E scooters. Although I think it's a very dynamic situation at the moment. So in the UK, for example, we've just announced that E scooters will become will be legally allowed to be written on streets. And Japan as well. They very recently announced the legalization of E scooters. But in many other cities, yeah, city authorities are clamping down their usage because they're becoming a bit of a nuisance. They've been reducing the numbers of E scooters, and in various parts of cities. There's just too many of them and they're just being dumped all over the place. And yeah, some cities, they're still banned, notably Amsterdam, where despite being really big on E Micromobility. E scooters are not permitted. And also in Australia in Queensland particular that they've started to clamp down on people speeding, so they're actually enforcing speeding with speed cameras or radar cameras to to catch people who were traveling too fast. So So I think it's an interesting opportunity for Honda. But yeah, probably a number of us that have challenges for global adoption, that

Scott Shepard  22:33  
it's interesting, it seems like there's a lot of different takes to it with some places seeing a lot of opportunity for for scooters, to handle mobility issues in in cities and other places to not, or to regulate them out of their cities. And it's striking with with Amsterdam, and I wonder if there's maybe sort of a relationship between the existing infrastructure system of the city. So for instance, Amsterdam already has so so much bike usage, that, you know, introducing a new technology is not really going to change, maybe some of the patterns that are already really sustainable. Whereas in other places that are more interested in adoption, they just need some new technology to help get them towards maybe more sustainable use. Is that would you say, close to what's happening or

Sagie Evbenata  23:36  
think something that could be very accurate? Certainly, yeah, in the Netherlands, they have very good infrastructure for micro mobility. And in places like Amsterdam, if I would say that the number of bikes is actually probably too much to also accommodate excuses, and less and less people are then dropping for scooters. But I think I think also safety, I think is, I think, is the biggest issue in micro mobility. And and what I've heard in the Netherlands is that the reason that they became banned was because of a couple of, of, of fatalities on the roads. And and even in the UK, where they're not technically legal apart from certain trials. There have been a number of accidents, which are far exceeds their their proportion of vehicles on the road. So So yeah, I think those could be some of the key factors in which cities are permitting and which are not permitted the scooters.

Sam Abuelsamid  24:41  
I'm curious. In Amsterdam, are e bikes allowed?

Sagie Evbenata  24:46  
Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, they're very common.

Sam Abuelsamid  24:51  
You know, from from a traffic perspective, it does seem a little odd. You know, there's, you know, there's a limited number of people and you know, It's seems like you know, someone's going to use an E scooter, you know, the problem, it's going to be a zero sum game, you know, they're going to use one or the other doesn't seem like you're necessarily going to have a tremendous increase by allowing e scooters. But I can see the safety case where, you know, there might be more concerns with safety with scooters as opposed to bicycles.

Sagie Evbenata  25:25  
Yeah, I think another interesting factor, which is very variable from from, from country to country, is that sometimes they're permitted to ride on bike or bike lanes, sometimes not like I think in Netherlands, they were not permitted to ride so they had to ride with them with the cars. Also, sometimes they're permitted to ride on sidewalks, and sometimes not. So I think yeah, these these kinds of variations as well. Yeah, impact whether or not they're adopted or permitted in each city or country.

Sam Abuelsamid  26:01  
All right. Anything else? All right, I'm going to address last week, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration here in the US, finally released the first tranche of data that came from a standing general order they issued in July or June, June of 2021. Where they mandated that all automakers and developers of automated driving systems had to report any data on any crashes that occurred with level two or above driving system. So level two is a system where the vehicle is capable of controlling both speed and direction. So the This includes systems like General Motors supercruise, and Nissan's ProPILOT, which may or may not encase a supercruise. It's a hands free system. ProPILOT is a hands on system. Tesla Autopilot, also a hands on system that manages both speed and direction. And, you know, also going all the way up to level four or five systems. And the NITSA has never previously required this information to be submitted. And in the past, when I've asked various automakers, you know, how many if any crashes have occurred with their, their driver assist systems like, like supercruise, they've always declined to, to comment on that. So it was great to finally see some actual data from this. So this was data submitted between June of last year and are July of 2021, in May of 2022. So what first 11 months of this program, and they split up the data between level two driver assistance systems, and then what they're terming as automated driving systems, which would be level three and four. The level two systems in particular, were interesting, because this is where all of Tesla's Systems Command. And Tessa, while they're far from having the most vehicles with driver assist systems on the road, and certainly not the only manufacturer, they've gotten the most attention. And one of the interesting parts of the the mandate from the regulators was that they not only had to, they had to report on any crash where the the ATS was active, up to 30 seconds before so it can be active at the time of the impact or anytime in a 32nd window prior to the impact. Which, you know, this has been one of the the long standing questions around Tesla Autopilot in particular, there have been many reports where drivers got into a crash. And they said that they had autopilot active. But Tesla, when they looked at their telemetry data, said, Nope, autopilot was not active at the time of the impact. And Tesla is one of those companies like GM that has never previously responded to questions about when was the system active prior to the impact? Because, you know, this, this points, you know, two issues with the human machine interface in the vehicle, you know, is the vehicle clearly communicating to drivers that you know what mode it's in, you know, that the system is active or not, and of 367 crashes of ATS systems. 273 involve Tesla vehicles with autopilot. And interestingly, at least 16 of those crashes, the autopilot deactivated less than one second prior to impact. Unfortunately, NITSA allowed the manufacturers to flag certain bits of data They submitted as a company business, or the confidential business information. So in the public report, that information, even though submitted to NITSA, NITSA has the data, that information was redacted from the public report. And Tesla, part of the data they had to submit was, you know, what type of system was on there? Where was the debt? You know, were there any injuries? What was the damage on the vehicle, and a description of the crash, and all 273 Tesla crashes were redacted from the descriptions. So we don't actually know what happened with those vehicles.

But, you know, I think that this is a good start for the industry. And I think, you know, I think it's important to have this have transparency, so that people understand and regulators can understand the actual effectiveness of these systems as we go forward, you know, are they, you know, there's, you know, that we all expect that these systems should be safer than human drivers alone. But, you know, we don't, we haven't had any actual evidence to that effect up till now. And so this is the first indicator we were seeing of the real effectiveness of these systems. So hopefully, going forward, maybe NITSA, will at least require the descriptions to be made public as part of their reporting, which apparently, they're going to start doing on a monthly or perhaps bi monthly basis going forward. And I'm looking forward to reading more of these reports. And, and learning how good or not these systems actually are.

Scott Shepard  31:42  
So Sam, in in terms of the redacted in information, does that mean, we don't have any visibility as to the severity of the crashes, or the

Sam Abuelsamid  31:56  
so we do have information on whether there were any injuries, we have information on, where on the vehicle, there might have been damaged physical damage, but we don't know. We don't know anything about what any sort of description about what happened, you know, did the vehicle run off the road by itself that run into another vehicle. And most of the the Tesla related crashes, they were, the damage to the Tesla vehicles was front damage front and front end damage, indicating that they ran into something else, you know, very little rear end damage indicating that they were run into by some other vehicle, which is the opposite of what we have, for the automated driving systems, most of the crashes with automated driving systems. You know, the largest number of those were with Waymo vehicles, because they have the most of these vehicles on the road. And most of those involve rear impacts where some other vehicle ran into the automated vehicle. But in the case of Tesla's is that most of the impact was on the front, indicating they ran into something. And GM or NITSA, has recently expanded their investigation of Tesla Autopilot, and crashes involving that. So I think what we're, what we're likely to see going forward is the start of a regulatory process for these systems that hopefully will involve setting some standards for performance for some way to evaluate the effectiveness of these systems, as we do with with crash testing and brake systems and lighting systems. I think it's important that we start, you know, having setting some standards for the capability of these systems. And then, you know, possibly, at some point, even mandating, you know, once we get to a point where the systems are demonstrated to be effective, actually mandate that some of these systems be required on new vehicles. Yeah.

Scott Shepard  34:03  
With so it sounded like, Tesla had the lion's share of data pertaining to level two systems. Is that correct? Yes. And then, was there any other notable automakers on the L two?

Sam Abuelsamid  34:21  
Yeah. Yeah, the next highest number interestingly, was from Honda, who does not market their vehicles as having an L to capability. Honda Viet most new Honda vehicles have Lane Keeping assistance, which is not the same as not as capable as a lane centering system. So all that is doing is trying to detect if you're drifting out of the lane and it will nudge the vehicle back into the lane, and also adaptive cruise control. And unlike systems, like autopilot and super cruise, the steering and speed control are not integrated systems that are too separate systems can operate independently of each other. So it's arguable whether these Honda vehicle crashes should have even been included in this number. There were 90 crashes with Honda vehicles. And none of those were redacted. So I actually did read through the descriptions, and pretty much all of those involved. You know, we're the description of the crash, indicated that actually had nothing to do with the Driver Assist system, it was a vehicle that happened to have adaptive cruise control, active went through an intersection, and a vehicle ran a stop sign and ran into it, or some some other type of crash that was unrelated to the fact that the ATS was active at that time.

Scott Shepard  35:52  
Okay, that's interesting.

Joe Jannotta  35:53  
I had a question about regulations around the human to machine interface, is there any proposed regulations or existing regulations around what that's what the on and off switch might be for the self driving?

Sam Abuelsamid  36:09  
Right now, there are no regulations, at least not in the US. There are some guidelines, you know, for HMI around things like touchscreens, you know, you know, not, you know, you shouldn't be doing anything on a touchscreen, that takes more than like, three to five seconds, or involves more than, like, five taps of the screen. But none of those are formal for Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. In Europe, for as part of the Euro end cap to your new car Assessment Program, where they give the five star safety ratings, they are from 2023 going to require that vehicles with with ATS have driver monitor systems in order to get that's going to be one of the requirements to get a five star score. And here in the US, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety that does the top safety pick plus and does a lot of crash testing. And also, the D O T for the US new car Assessment Program are going to be revising their standards for their scoring. So they're actually going to be start testing these ATS systems to see if they if they really work. And also looking at including things like driver monitoring, to see you know, to make sure that the driver is still watching the road for systems like level two, where it's where the drivers still supposed to be paying attention to the road. It's not, it's not an eyes off system. So that's that's about all we've got at the moment. I suspect in the next few years, we will start to see some of that some some sort of regulations around the human machine interface, though.

Sagie Evbenata  38:06  
I think it was really interesting. Yeah, those insights, especially on the on the level two systems. And and also you mentioned how many of the drivers were involved in these incidents, they believe that the some kind of radar system was on but in fact, it was not. So it was turned off a fraction of a second before the incident. And so yeah, I think that there's, there's, there's some challenge around that handover of control back to the back to the driver. And so just from personal experience, I think when the system when self driving systems get into trouble, then they will they will switch responsibility back to the driver. But But that's also the most challenging period when there is an immediate hazard or, or a risk of some kind of a collision.

Sam Abuelsamid  38:59  
Yeah, you know that that handoff is a real challenge. And also, another point about the the human machine interface is how you indicate to the driver and this is and also the way these systems are branded. You know, I think one of the reasons why there have been so many crashes with Tesla vehicles is because calling the system autopilot, you know, implies to a lot of people that the system is you know, more capable than it really is and autopilot is actually a very capable ATS system and it's it's as good as many of the other systems on the market. But it the naming implies that it is more capable. And I think that there's there's a greater perception among Tesla drivers of their their system of their vehicles being closer to self driving than they actually are. And so you have I think you we have probably have more Tesla driver errs, that are not paying the same attention to the road that they should be. And because Tesla does not use, for example, capacitor sensors in the steering wheel to detect that hands on the wheel, and they don't use the driver monitor system to keep make sure eyes are on the road, there's more likelihood that the drivers attention is going to waver. And they're not going to be ready to take over control when they when they need to. And they may not even be aware of it because of the interface. Whereas if you look at something like GM supercruise, they use a colored light bar and the top of the top portion of the steering wheel. They use haptic feedback. And they have an infrared camera that monitors the driver. So if the driver is looks away from the road for more than a few seconds, then the system will start to alert the driver with Audible and haptic feedback. And the light bar on the steering wheel will go from green to red. So it's very clear in GM vehicles what mode the system's in when it's in blue, when the bar is blue, then the system is ready but not active. When it's green, it's active and controlling the steering and speed. And when it's red, it's alerting the driver to take back control and that they have the best HMI think of any of these systems. And, you know, I think other manufacturers should be emulating that. All right. Well, that's it for this week. Thanks, everybody, for joining us, and we'll talk to you next time. Thank you